Destroyers larger than cruisers?

[sandmanj9]

I always wondered why JMS always had his EA Destroyers larger than his Cruisers? In all the navies around the world, the order from smallest to largest has always been: corvette, frigate, destroyer, destroyer escort, and cruiser. Knowing JMS, he probably has a reason considering he always is accurate when it comes to realism and accuracy. Does anyone know if he posted anything about it?

[Biggles]

He was bored?

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not Great Machine. Is...Not-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

[MageWolf]

Originally posted by Biggles:
He was bored?



Yet another amazing Biggles post http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif The idea was that the Heavy Cruiser Hyperion had been in service for a while, and it was time to replace it with another fleet backbone ship. Apparently the EA Congress or whatever thought "eeew, another cruiser? That's mega bucks, no way, hozay" so, EF named the class of the Omega to be Destroyer in a silly attempt to pull one over on the Government. Amazingly, it worked.

Hence, the Omegas are much more powerful, but have a lesser rating. Now days, it's kinda accepted a Destroyer is more powerful than a cruiser just for this one trick that worked!

I can't point you in the direction of a canon document to prove this, or to prove I'm not talking out of my butt, but when I first read this, I thought it made good sence! http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif

[Shuup Nick]

Also the name "Destroyer" is more aggressive. "Cruiser" gives an impression of: "Yeah, I'm just hangin' around, having a laugh man.", whereas "Destroyer" conotes: "Don't mess with me! I'll kick you ass into the next county!" sort of thing.
This howerer, is just my deluded opinion. http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif

Cherio.

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Catapvltam habeo. Nisi pecvniam omnem mihi dabis, ad capvt tvvm saxvm immane mittam.
Mater tva criceta fvit, et pater tvo redolvit bacarvm sambvcvs.

[This message has been edited by Shuup Nick (edited 06-04-2001).]

[Magnum]

In the real navy, a cruiser is a multi-purpose ship.Nowadays, it's mainly a cruise missile platform. A destroyer destroys things. The OCD's primary mission is to destroy things, and probably wasn't meant for primary fleet duty. Of course, it ended up being more cost-effective, and pretty much replaced the Hyperion as the ship of the line.
Also, Omega-class destroyer sounds a lot better than Omega-class cruiser. Much more menacing, as was pointed out.

[MageWolf]

I personally would drool more over "the Omega Class Battlecruiser" http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif But .. alas http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif

[socrates]

I think somebody pointed out in another thread that a destroyer in the modern navy is the mainstay that makes up the bulk of the fleet. It does a lot of the work like escort, protection, offense, etc. Similarly, the Omega is the mainstay of the current EA fleet, and fulfils a lot of these roles. Therefore it is called a Destroyer class. I think that person (can't remember who http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif) made a good point. (assuming I remembered his point correctly http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif)

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Commander socrates
flightleader, Erinyes
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops

"Do NOT interfere."

[WHY_old]

isn't a destroyer-escort a frigate ?

[Gideon]

I remember that I brought this question up a long time ago. I forgot why, but I think it's due to the design of the ship or some crap like that.

[Biggles]

If you want to get technical about the design of it, then you would have to label it a carrier as well as a destroyer.
One thing to remember is that our current ideas won't fit perfectly into B5's universe. Most will go OK, like the idea of a destroyer being the backbone of the fleet. But some things will be different, like the fact that this kind of destroyer just happens to carry 18 (or is it 24?) fighters on board.

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not Great Machine. Is...Not-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

[Freejack]

....and is HUGE compared to today's sea bound carriers

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Freejack: The Theoretical Subatomic Particle

I am but mad north-north-west: when the wind is
southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw.
Hamlet

<*>
B5:ITF

[This message has been edited by Freejack (edited 06-04-2001).]

[TheSaint]

Maybe the EA never had the good sense to update its vessel classification, or forgot to apply it to older vessels.

Senator A: "Oh, any ships build from now on has to be a certain size to be a 'cruiser', otherwise they're all destroyers."

Admiral B: "What would that certain size be?"

Senator A: "5 miles."

Admiral B: "So what would make the Hyperions what? A shuttle?"

Senator A: "No, no. Only new ships have to follow this silly rule."

Admiral B: "That a whole bunch of bull..."

Senator A: "You're obviously under alien influence. Take him away."

Admiral B: "Noooooooo..."

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

[Shuup Nick]

lol http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif

Also, bab5 is set relatively far in the future so, so military changes have probably been made. You have to remember that 100 years ago, the concept of an aircraft carrier would have confused a lot of people, so the idea of changing around ship classifications to suit needs isn't too far-fetched.

Cherio.

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Catapvltam habeo. Nisi pecvniam omnem mihi dabis, ad capvt tvvm saxvm immane mittam.
Mater tva criceta fvit, et pater tvo redolvit bacarvm sambvcvs.

[psyco]

Originally posted by WHY:
isn't a destroyer-escort a frigate ?

I thought they re-designated them as Corvettes

[shadowsword]

i never really figured that it made much difference, though i did wonder why, according to BattleShip (the game), why the smallest ship, when moved to other universes, was always the most powerful (the best cases being the Omega and the Imperial class Stardestroyer) so my guess is that it's just one of those "this sounds better" things, or the whole bulk of the fleet thing

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"Use our information or
not, but is it sensible
to shoot the messenger?"
"When the messenger won't
tell you what the hell
the messege is, my
trigger finger gets twitchy."

[Biggles]

Stardestroyer is another thing entirely. It is not following the "frigate, cruiser or destroyer?" idea. It is called a stardestroyer in that it is supposed to project the image of being big enough and powerful enough to destroy stars, purely as a "strike fear into the hearts of our enemies" thing.

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not Great Machine. Is...Not-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

[JohnD]

Originally posted by sandmanj9:
In all the navies around the world, the order from smallest to largest has always been: corvette, frigate, destroyer, destroyer escort, and cruiser.

So you know, that is not completely correct. Weren't frigates originally, in the age of sail, the largest warships around? Also, more often than not, navies name their ships based on role, not size. Plus, a number of frigate types exist that are larger than destroyers or smaller than corvettes, destroyers that are larger than cruisers or smaller than frigates and there even exist cruisers that are smaller than some destroyers.

The US Arleigh Burke and Japanese Kongo destroyers are larger than most cruisers, the US Ticonderoga cruisers are smaller than some destroyers (possibly due to the fact that they were designed based upon what was originally a destroyer hull, leading to the Ticos being somewhat top-heavy)...and the list goes on and on.

[JohnD]

Originally posted by Magnum:
In the real navy, a cruiser is a multi-purpose ship. Nowadays, it's mainly a cruise missile platform.


Nowadays, very few countries operate cruisers. Most countries' navies are lucky to even use destroyers, and some rely more on corvettes/light frigates, especially the MEKO series of ships.

A destroyer destroys things.

Actually, the term "destroyer" originated with the destroyer's original purpose - torpedo boat destroyer.

[MageWolf]

Originally posted by JohnD:
So you know, that is not completely correct. Weren't frigates originally, in the age of sail, the largest warships around? Also, more often than not, navies name their ships based on role, not size.

Incorrect. The Frigates back in the Age of Sail were warships with generally 20 to 48 guns. The ships with 50 to 100 guns+ were considered the Liners; the navy battleships. They sometimes get refered to as cruisers.

So, frigates were designed for scouting. Not the largest ships. Having said that, frigates were small and compact, and their captains generally prefered their freedom than when commanding the slow, large, ponderous ships-of-the-line.

[Biggles]

So where do the Man-O'-War's come in? I thought they were the 20-48 gun ones, with frigates being bigger.

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not Great Machine. Is...Not-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

[Gideon]

Well, I guess the only answer is that things always change.........

[psyco]

This is the USS Constitution http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/gonavy2.jpg an American Frigate.American Frigates were larger and carried more guns than British and French ones but were actually faster because of advanced engineering for the time.

But even those large Frigates were small compaired to the Ships of the Line http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/1797/Victory/images/victory.jpg the forerunner of Dreadnaughts and Battleships.

BTW here's an interesting read about the history of Destroyers. http://www.destroyercommand.com/campaigns.html

Cruisers are another ship type that has it's name shaped by it's job...long range cruising with a range greater than the heavier Battleships.At the time when Hyperions are built they apparently have longer legs than the Olympus class.



[This message has been edited by psyco (edited 06-06-2001).]

[MageWolf]

Heheh, love those pictures.

Man 'o war ... any warship is a man 'o war.. really http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif

I saw the USS Constellation when I was in USA in December, lovely site http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif I really enjoyed seeing such a lovely ship.

Now. Yes, she was much more powerful than British and French ships, but carried similar guns, but her hull was the size of a 74 gun, but frigate rigged, giving her very quick speed and such like.

Hopefully this year I will get a chance to see a British 36 (or was it a 32?) gun frigate build in 1812 up North in England. I'm so looking forward to it, and it'll be great to compare her to the USS Constitution! http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif

[Biggles]

Damn that's a lot of guns...

I'm pretty sure that a Man o' War is actually a specific class of ship, like frigates and cruisers.

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not Great Machine. Is...Not-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

[MageWolf]

Yup, a *lot* of guns. Really scary thinking about it. A single battleship had more artillery on her than all the guns in a typical land battle, and of much larger caliber.

These ships are amazing. I was in Washington in December, and got a chance to drive down to see the USS Constellation, a frigate built by USA. Lovely. Really really worth going to see.

Just don't go in December, it was SO COLD!!!

[Londo Molari]

Destroyers SHOULD be larger than cruisers... the rest of the world is wrong... you... you're all wrong!

[milod]

Originally posted by MageWolf:
Yup, a *lot* of guns. Really scary thinking about it. A single battleship had more artillery on her than all the guns in a typical land battle, and of much larger caliber.

That's nothing compared to a modern boomer. When an Ohio class SSBN sets sail it becomes the sixth largest nuclear power in the world.


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--milo
http://members.home.net/milod

[Biggles]

Hehe I like that idea... except that it's pure evil.

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not Great Machine. Is...Not-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

[Gideon]

Evil?

[Biggles]

Nuclear fission weapons are pure evil. Didn't you know?

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not Great Machine. Is...Not-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

[Gideon]

Nuclear Weapons = Good http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif

How come people always think of "Worst Case Scenario" when they think of Nukes? Do they ever stop to think of the "Best Case Scenario" for just a second?

[Black&Gold Vorlon]

No! Anything that has to do with radiation or has something like 'nuke' in it is evil! Using nuclear power would result in us growing threes eyes and an extra arm from our foreheads! We must use coal and oil for our power!

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There is only chaos and evolution
There is only order and obidience. You will do as you are told.
You will fight ofr us when we tell you to fight for us.
You will die for use when we tell you to die for us, because the others know no other way.

[Warleader D'Ren]

except coal and oil will run out. USA has 30 years worth of oil left in present day pumps, that's why we are brown-nosing arabs so much

[Gideon]

We are brown-nosing the Arabs? Be reasonable man! The U.S. is not going that far!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
We just ask the Arabs very very very very nicely. http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif

[Biggles]

Notice how specific I was? Nuclear Fission Weapons. As in the ones that kill millions of people and leave an area completely uninhabital for decades (or at the very least years). I did not say nuclear power, which I personally don't consider to be all that bad (although I believe alternatives such as hydro should be used instead if they are available).

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not Great Machine. Is...Not-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

[psyco]

I stand somewhat corected.After remembering that line in Severed Dreams "We can't outrun them in normal space." I did some researching.

It seems cruisers were originaly made with speed in mind along with range.A Brit named Fisher had the idea of a ship faster than Battleships and with smaller guns(around 10in.) that have a higher rate of fire and with light armor.Not the kind of ship to go toe to toe with Battleships though.

But some countries had different ideas and made ships with heavier armor and even smaller guns(around 8in.).

The line between Cruisers and Battleships blured in the 1930's when the treatys limiting ship size were finally ignored by everyone.Cruisers got larger and heavier with larger guns,right up until WWII, when the big guns became less of a threat with the changing of tactics because of the use of aircraft.

So I guess JMS had it right when he caled the Hyperion a Heavy Cruiser.That one may be the most aptly named one in the show...a ship that has less armor and smaller guns for the advantage of range and speed.