"Babylon 5: The Lost Tales" VFX Discussion (Spoilers)

[Alec M]

Guys and gals,

With today being the launch day for this disc, I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the VFX work, just to get a bunch of opinions and see what everyone thinks. Everyone here at Atmosphere really worked hard on this show, just to try and meet our own expectations within the short deadline. Long hours, frayed nerves, sacrificed elements and missed errors are the nature of VFX work under what some would, and did, call a "ridiculous" schedule. Still, I'm proud of everyone for getting the show done and doing what I consider to be a pretty good job. I hope some of you have the chance to watch the show in HD!


So, let's hear some thoughts on what you liked, what you didn't, and what you were hoping for VFX wise. Personally, I'm really hoping WB gives the green light for more B5 "Lost Tales", and I'd love to work on it again.

Fingers crossed!

[samuelk]

I'm watching it right now. :)

I'm very impressed with the FX work. The Station in particular looks much better. The number of lights on the station has increased substantially, and it looks great. The increase in texture detail helps convey the shear size of B5. Of course the higher poly count and addition of extra greeblies/nurnies helps, too. :)

Some of the compositing work is great, and some not quite so great. But all in all, it's leaps and bounds beyond anything in the original series. Most of the greenscreen work is really great. Even on the standard definition DVD, you can see how well characters are composited with the background. Even individual hairs are preserved. Great stuff.

Effects such as light blooms and depth of field are used well but not overused.

I was also impressed with scenes that involved heavy compositing without locking the camera down, such as the scene with Sheridan in the Starfury (no spoilers here, because that shot can be seen in the trailer). Match-moving the CGI with the live Fury cockpit was very well done.

[Mr_Bester]

I'm picking this up on my way home from work. Does anyone know if the HD version will be available on BluRay or anywhere besides the XBox Live? I really want to see this in 1080p glory....Just from the trailer, the effects look great.
Dug

[Alec M]

I haven't read any news about a Blue-Ray or HD-DVD release. I don't have an Xbox and don't plan to get one, so I'd really like a disc release in HD at some point. Of course, I don't have an HD player right now either, so I'm in no rush. Still, it would be nice to know if it's going to happen or not.

[WORF]

All I can say is that I couldn't help grinning when I saw the first shot of B5 in The Lost Tales, it was a real thrill to see it in such detail. I never expected to see any new B5 material, finally being able to and have it look so good...great work :D

Here's hoping WB decide to produce some more :)

Worf

[Chaosed]

I hope you stick around long enough for all of us to have seen it and tell you what we think Alec M

PS Do you know how many sales WB wants before the go-ahead is given?

If I ask that question enough someone will give me the answer. ( I hope )

[Space Ghost]

Here, here! MANY more. :)

Anyway, the VFX was wonderful! I just finished watching it and I have to say that I'm impressed. The effects were very convincing. B5 never looked so good and neither has the Starfury. Loved it! :D

[HuntSmacker]

I'm also interested to know how much WB are wanting..

[Alec M]

I hope you stick around long enough for all of us to have seen it and tell you what we think Alec M

PS Do you know how many sales WB wants before the go-ahead is given?


I've been lurking on most of the B5 forums for a while to see what people were saying, so I don't plan to ignore them now that everyone has something to talk about. That being said, I'm just curious to get some opinions, not to have an in depth conversation about the ins and outs of the show from my end.

I don't know anything about the production beyond the VFX stuff, and even then not everything. The best way I could put it would be to say "I just work here". WB's budgetary plans or goals is very, very far removed. I'm just hoping for more like everyone else.

[Mr_Bester]

I just watched it. I enjoyed it. The FX were very good with a couple of minor issues.

The opening shot in the hangar: It took a minute to realize they were on a catwalk ABOVE the main bay, secondly there seemed to be a strange comp issue where lockleys face went blurry on an edge for a second. Also, it just didn't look quite "right".(However, the shots at the end of the second story in the bay looked much better)

Interior of Valen class: It took a bit to realize we were looking through the HUD.(not your fault, more directorial issue).

Those were my only nitpicks. I thought everything else looked awesome. It's nice to see a modern B5 and ships....
Dug

[thagerty]

My name is Terry Hagerty.

I consider myself a B5, CGI, and VFX nut. I have closely followed the series from day one and was one of those guys who recorded each episode (on a VCR..BLAH!) and then paused the CGI shots and moved them through frame by frame to figure out how certain shots are done.

I used to do my own B5 Lightwave animation since season one first aired on my little old Amiga 1200 (with 10 megs or ram...ooooh! A lot at the time) using Lightwave 3.5! I've gotten more updated since then :p, but you might have seen my B5 works on the net at various B5 sites.

This includes my Drazi Sunhawk, Vorlon Fighter, and Narn Jumpgate all made in Lightwave. Like the following...

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6414094234410701090

I heard Alec that you used some of the communities B5 Lightwave 3d models as a reference since many (or all?) of the original models were lost! I was wondering if you used my Drazi Sunhawk at all since I noticed some flying by in the first shot with the other ships flying by! ;)

Needless to say my dream job would be to work at a place like Atmosphere like you Alec!

As far as B5: The Lost Tales goes.... fantastic work! Most people don't appreciate the wonder that you guys did in such a short time! The details in everything is incredible compared to the original series! The Jumpgate and Vortex are much better looking with lots of little extra details and effects in there.

The B5 station is wonderful! The outer docking bay entrance left me floored! No more lego-block like details! And no more of the flat and bland "Generic Panels" texture from Lightwave that was overused so much in the original series! Nice to see lots of 3D surfaces and details. Also nice to see real looking lights instead of just simple Lens Flares! I also like the fact that you have the words "Babylon 5" on the outside of the station...something I never saw in the original! Nice to see the top of the station getting a 3d surfaced treatment too! (That was the part of the old station that really bugged me.... again, Generic Panels.iff :laugh:)

The inner docking bay was also VERY nice! Unlike the original series, all of the close-up shots looked just as detailed as they were far away!

The FIRE shots were VERY nice and smooth! Very convincing!

The rotating background in Lockley's quarters looked a little awkward, but were good considering the camera movement.

The nebulas are much nicer looking (and the textures for them aren't CUT-OFF at the bottom like in the original series)!

The various recreated ships were staggering! The shuttle no longer is a big lego block assembly! The Centauri War Cruisers are much more convincing now! Sheridan's Presidential Ship is beautiful! I noticed some ships in the background were new ships not from the series! So which ships were NOT recreated by you guys but were the original models you recovered???

The StarFurys!!! My God! The detail you put into those ships almost made me cry! Again, nice brushed-metal looking bump-mapped surfaces with no more "Generic Panels". The non-static camera movement (not to mention the matched light and shadow movement) of Sheridan in his cockpit was beautiful! The detail in the engines and their thrusters....

The brief battle scene was very nice! The explosion of ships and their debris was total eye candy!

Minbar from space and on land is as beautiful as I remember!

I could go on and on..... buy needless to say you guys at Atmosphere has done a real service to the Bablyon 5 fans out there! You have given the show a complete face-lift without sacrificing its original beaty and design. This is how we fans have wanted to see Babylon 5 for years! Thank-you, and I hope you get more chances to show your work in future B5 creations!

[samuelk]

Whoah, quadruple post.

EDIT: There, that's better.

Now that I've seen the entire movie, I can say that some of the more subtle effects were pretty cool, such as the heat distortion on the Furies in the docking bay (and in the thruster fire), and the smudged Fury cockpit windows. Very neat stuff.

[Konrad]

This DVD was not about effects ~ it was about some fantastic exposition and character driven story... However:

Spoilers Perhaps:

View from Lockley's quarters out to the rotating station :)

Warlocks! Starfurries! Wonderful lighting on B5! Loved the views of the docking bays. Fantastic view of Minbar and Future New York. Space Normal/Hyper/Other looked great too.

Only minor hopes:
Missed the view of the center of the station and gardens, that’s one thing I'd really like to see. Omegas next time too (best sci-fi ship ever)

I'm very very happy ~ I hope someone who worked on this is reading here and is proud of all of the great work. Love the new fresh look.

[croxis]

I don't suppose you guys could recreate a classic B5 battle? No? Awwww.


Gorgeous work. I don't have an eye for detail like some here, but what you did was amazing.

[Seafroggys]

Yeah I was definitally in awe.

Though my question remains........quantum space? And also while the jump portals are intensly amazing, I think I still prefer CtA/Crusade style the best, in terms of style, not technical.

[Alec M]

You would have to ask JMS about the quantum space.

I would have loved more time to finesse a couple of shots, even just a week would have been a God send, but such is the world of deadlines. Mostly I would have loved our compositors to have a bit more time. We were delivering CG to them almost until the last minute and it was difficult on their end. I hate doing that, but there was just no way to avoid it on this project.

Only a few fan models were used as reference. I did some renders of a bunch of them to get people used to the ships and their names, to help decide which ships to ultimately build new versions of, but that's about the extent of it. Eventually we managed to get a copy of the old B5 library, or at least a partial copy, and that's where all of those background ships came from. There are no fan models in the show anywhere, obviously. Also, Fabio Passaro, who built the station, had some old B5 models he'd done for AOG I believe and I put those into a few shots as well.

[thagerty]

I always wondered...what resolution do you guys render theses shows at? Is it 1920x1080? Or is it even higher then converted down for HDTV and DVD?

Also in major films (like Star Wars,etc...) what is the render resolution for those? I always wondered.....

Where did the partial library or original B5 objects come from? Where have they been hiding?????

Again great work!

[croxis]

I'm sure Jack has nothing to do with it at all :D

[Alec M]

Pfff. Who?

:p

[ZocaloHobo]

Fantastic Job!!!!!

You guys did a beautiful job, every one of the VFX sequences were jaw dropping!!

Can't thank you enough for all of the hours that it had to take!

I think congratulations are in order

[A2597]

I love hearing that Fabio did the new station...man...just brings back a flood of memories from the B5 Modelers Guild.

DANG I miss that place.

[sinclair]

The new station was absolutely beautiful, I used pause few times just to watch her in all the detail.

I'm not a great fan of green/bluescreen stuff, but this time it really didnt bother me so much... Might be because its Babylon 5 we are talkin' here.

Can't wait to see more!

[Seafroggys]

Even though everything happened in the same 3 sets.

Since when did station officials meet people in the docking bay?

[samuelk]

I has happened quite a few times.

In this case, it makes sense, because the case with Simon Burke was very unique, and Lochley wanted to take the priest to him immediately, without wasting time.

But let's keep this on the topic of VFX.

[ShadowDancer]

I guess the old arrivals hall would have been too hard to do on green screen, just because we're all so familiar with the old set it wouldnt have looked right

[A2597]

Just watched it...

Oh gosh it's good to see the old station again! And Starfuries, and the Vorchron, and I guess the Belvarian cruiser is now Canon (Wow for that one, LOL) And just...oh man makes me happy. :D

[ShadowDancer]

I just watched it again. Sweet stars those starfury's were beautiful! They always looked good, but omg they look incredible now!

[sinclair]

Btw, is the Hyperion class cruiser missing a Earth Force marking textures right in the beginning, when the fleet flees the station?

Btw x2
Why Starfury's? Where are the Thunderbolts? I mean, Starfury looks great yes, but not a single Thunderbolt, anywhere.... ;(

[A2597]

Ohh...I found an Omega! :) In the battle sequence. :)

[Chaosed]

Not in order.

1) Minbar with 'grass'. Nice to see something growing there.

2) Minbari ships look good. I noticed there blue in the last shot. good.

3) Centari ships look like the old constructor toys. Too much like Leggos. They have lost there smooth Imperial French-German look. Worse then Klingon.
Why are they gray? That was one of the things B5 got right. Little gray.

4) Earth ships were blocky. Some things don't change. ;) Earth ships weren't gray. Gray is bad.

5) Not really your job but,.. Why were Sheridon and Ventari not wareing seatbelts? We ware them and we have gravity.

6) In Lokley's room the spin of B5 seemed to be the wrong way.

7) The docking bay ( wrong term? ) is much better. too much gray though.

8) Saucers look good Humm no Narn? Drazi ships looked ok. They got rid of there bright engines? I see the gray demon got them too.

9) the war seen looked good. Great green decal. ;)

10) B5 is bigger then it was. 2ed set of solar come docking fins. B5 was made on the cheep. It should be smaller. Other then the phallus jokes and it being bigger the station looked fine.

There now change everything for me. go, now.

[Alec M]

3) Fair comment, though I will say that updating the original Vorchan design was tried, just with more detail. It looked silly. The modeler went back and made some of his own changes, and everyone liked them. I've seen a bunch of comments online so far about how B5 still has that "candy" look with this disc, and I think we backed it off from the original show, so it's purely a personal opinion thing. Plus, the cruiser is a bit less saturated so the fighters stand out against it during the battle. Too much purple otherwise.

4) Earth ships were certainly grey, except for the Omegas which were sort of brown, and still are in the two shots I put them in. There are lots of kinds of "grey".

5) Can't help there.

6) It's the right way, trust me. That view is VERY disorienting. The camera is exactly where it should be spinning around with the same station animation as the rest of the shots. It just looks weird, it's the nature of the geography. I thought the same thing when I did the first preview of that shot.

7) B5 was built on the cheap, right, why would they spend money to paint to decorate a place that only lowly techs usually enter for any significant period of time? :p

8) There is a G'Quan around the station in a couple of shots. Drazi ship still has the bright engines, just not quite so blazing orange, more of a glow, plus it's far away and might not be visible in standard def.

9) The green decal kicks ass.

10) B5 is not bigger. It is exactly 5 miles long, exactly. All of the other ships are scaled properly as best as I could manage, though in a lot of our shots they're farther away from the station. The old models can't hold up to HD frame size and there was no time to work on them, plus, why would you even want a Sharlin 500 metres from B5? Space is big, better to keep some distance for safety ;)

Awesome comments. Oh, and A2597, you should be able to find an Omega or two in at least one other shot.

On Thunderbolts....just no time, and not really *that* important.

Most things are rendered at 1920x1080 for this. Depends on the element, or the shot. Some things can be less, rarely is anything ever more. Nothing is absolute.

B5 is a tough crowd to play to. I hope the disc does well enough for more.

[HuntSmacker]

Any chance of one or two 1920x1080 screenshots? :D

[David of Mac]

Oh, there's more than that. I just looked at Alec's site on a whim, and very nearly died of joy when I saw the massive update in his gallery section. I didn't look closely, because I want to see it all for the first time in context on the DVD (does anyone remember when pre-ordering from Amazon meant you got it on or before the release date? I sure do), but I have to say that with the large size and large quantity of pictures he's put on his site from this and other shows, Alec is now confirmed as my favorite professional special effects person ever.

[Messiah]

BTW Alec, did you design the Daedalus class ships on SG-1? If so, great job! One of the best looking ships Ive seen. :)

[Alec M]

Nope, I had nothing to do with the Daedalus. Most of the Stargate stuff is designed by the art department at the production office. I like the Daedalus as well, though I find it only looks good from a few angles, and it only lights well from a few angles. It's a nice model though, lots of detail.

VFX artists don't get to do design or art direction work very often, which is why it was such a treat and so much fun for "Lost Tales".

[David of Mac]

Well, while we're on the subject, was it your idea to incorporate details from the stargate into the textures of that Atlantis model, like the arches surrounding the weapons dishes, and the zig-zag lines along the borders? Because I thought that was really cool when I first noticed it, and I think it should've been like that on the city model(s) from day one.

[Alec M]

Yes, that was me. Atmosphere has only done a handful of city shots though, and that texture job only appears on *our* city, and maybe a couple of shots from production's in-house team. Rainmaker has their own model of the city, for example.

[PSI-KILLER]

Finished watching it. Where all things VFX is concerned it was great. I don't think I noticed anything that was wrong with the perspectives or the designs. My only bone to pick is why not more?????? I undertsand the development and focus for story reasons on the characters but the flashbacks or flashforwards of the space battle were more like short term memory loss moments, why only 30 seconds for a battle sequence why not at least make it 5 mins. We should see more what causes the battle and why they are fighting and who actually wins. Space battles should be done just like the development of any character. To just give short teases instead of a real drama space battle under utilizes your groups talents.

[A2597]

The space battle was a last minute detail, JMS didn't have it in the script at all until he relized "Oh crap, no action...GOT to have some action!" So he tossed that on the VFX guys last minute pretty much.

Also, incredibly strict timelines to work with....

(Head to CG Society (http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=4173) to read more...theres three articles on the VFX for The Lost Tales there.

[Chaosed]

Thanks AlexM I'll try to pay more of the little attention I have on the work you did just for me,.. ok us.

7) I don't know, why DID they paint the low techs area? Ok bad joke. It looked like the disembarking area. Having listened to the Babylon Podcast it was explained that the pant was cheaper then aluminum gray. I liked that much as I've come to hate gray.

I have HD, it's my brain that doesn't work. Thus recalling the Earth ships being blue when it is just a stripe.

I hope to see more of your work on the next B5 project! :D

[Chaosed]

Well, I hit delete. Sorry for the double post.

[ShadowDancer]

Just as an aside on the VFX front, I just realised what the Valen-class cruiser reminds me of from some angles: a manta ray, both of which i think look beautiful :)

I still really miss the old hyperspace graphics from the show tho, they will always be hyperspace to me

[David of Mac]

This is a bit of an art-direction thing, but were the jump points into and out of Quantum Space supposed to be visually distinct from the ones going into and out of "normal" hyperspace? I've only watched once so far, and it was a story-watch and not an effects-watch, so I didn't pick up on any consistent similarities or differences.

Also, I loved the way the station establishing shots were handled. Those first shots after the opening credits made me think that this is what Babylon 5- The Movie would be like.

[Alec M]

No, not really. You'll notice the jump point looks the same for the transport carrying Father Cassidy as it does when the IA-1 arrives at B5. We made a few quick versions of the jump points before settling on one. I like the ACTA jump points as well, but I find they had lost their depth compared to the older version, so I wanted to reclaim a bit of that while still keeping the white core, which always made more sense to me.

Again, a bit more time to refine the jump point stuff would have been great, but no, there isn't supposed to be a "quantum" jump point and a "hyper" one.

[Seafroggys]

If anybody has any links or info about this quantam space, let me know. Its actually pissing me off, because it seems like it was just thrown in for the hell of it.

[David of Mac]

Well, we know from "The Long, Twilight Struggle," and whichever Season 4 episode where they found the Vorlon fleet traveling in a hyperspace "pocket" that the First Ones knew a lot more about Hyperspace than they let on. "Thirdspace" was theorized to be a different, faster version of Hyperspace, before they found out there were evil aliens living in it. In the second "Legions of Fire" book, Vir and the technomages find a Shadow jumpgate that the Drakh dug up that formed a super-high-speed "train" between it and a second jumpgate near the Shadow base of Xa'dam, allowing the distance to be crossed in minutes instead of days.

So there's precedence for trans-hyper-space technology, even if Quantum Space has never specifically been mentioned.

[Stingray]

Judging from the images in your gallery, Alec, the VFX appear to be particularly well done. I haven't seen TLT yet (Zone 2 release set to 1st week of September), but I look forward to seeing the models in motion. :)

It would all look so nice in a game too....

[Seafroggys]

Well I'm just wondering, it just seemed to come out of nowhere. The Vorlons and Shadows never used it, there was no mention in SiL or Crusade. I just felt it was tagged on for the hell of it. It felt out of place to me.

[David of Mac]

I watched the opening sequence again, and going frame-by-frame on my computer, and noticed that the Starfuries and shuttle were the series models, and not the Lost Tales version (The new shuttle is curvier, and the new starfuries have the side thrusters going out aligned with the main x and y axes of the ship, while the original had them at an angle, aligned with the wing). And they never fixed the compositing (or scaling) error with the Centauri ship in front of the Minbari one, instead of behind, making the Minbari ship look gigantic. Just a little oddity I saw.

Other thoughts from this quick skim before bed- The Minbari landscape was a beauty, I kind of like the odd little "pop" the jump point made when it closed, the wicker screen on the Valen that Vintari hides behind in his first appearance looks exactly like a rocking chair I have.

I've got to make a more coherent list of observations later.

[Alec M]

The opening sequence was done by Zoic Vancouver. I'm not sure which models they used, but I know they converted and updated some of the originals for that one shot. I also noticed some strange luminous blue surface in the forward nozzles of the 'Furys as well.

I know what you mean about the Sharlin scale thing, but it *is* that big. 1600 metres long makes it extremely tall. The Primus is a tad shorter lengthwise, but a lot of that is tail and it's a very flat ship. Seen in 3D next to each other, that's what they look like, I tested it.

Now it may not fit people's perceptions, but can you remember seeing a Primus and a Sharlin next to each other in the series, ever?

The Sharlin simply dwarfs almost all other ships in B5 in terms of its volume. There are longer ships, but very few could look as big when stacked next to a Sharlin like that.

I still prefer the dynamics of the station destruction from "Sleeping in Light", but the version Zoic Vancouver did looks pretty nice.

[Chaosed]

I must now take back my thrice viewed B5 station. It seems I was in a different reality. There there was a whole extra segment with docking fins on it. ( that would make two sets of fins. Not just top and bottom. )

I noticed it when I went and saw your stills. I looked at the stills and what I saw on the DVD. They weren't the same. I went back to the disk to compare. The station had changed. It was vary confusing untill I realized it was a different reality.

Sorry to have made that mistake in realities. I completely take it back. Your version of B5 looks just fine AlecM.

[PSI-KILLER]

The space battle was a last minute detail, JMS didn't have it in the script at all until he relized "Oh crap, no action...GOT to have some action!" So he tossed that on the VFX guys last minute pretty much.

Also, incredibly strict timelines to work with....

(Head to CG Society (http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=4173) to read more...theres three articles on the VFX for The Lost Tales there.

interesting

[DarthCaligula]

Little nitpicky things... (wrong topic?):

I really agree with Croxis. Quantum space? Did anyone else notice the story problem with this? Someone else mentioned it almost. Remember the Vorlon fleet in season 4? So Marcus and Susan discover this pocket, just barely missed it, it's an important thing that they discover this fleet that the Vorlons are trying to keep hidden, so why would the Vorlons use Hyperspace where they know that the Younger Races could possibly see it? Why not use Quantum space and totally get rid of any chance of discovery? I just can't buy it. And also in SiL, Sheridan wants to get to the Coriana system really fast since he's dying, but uses Hyperspace, which now doesn't make sense.
And I just have to say that I didn't like the new hallways. A lot of the time I was wondering if we were in Brown or Blue sector.

I did like the story though. I like the first one more than the other, and the guy playing the possessed guy did a great job.
As for the FX, which I know this is really supposed to be about. I also agree with Croxis about the Crusade jump points being my favorite, but I also really liked these new ones. I'm glad they didn't look as transparant as the ones in LOTR. I also liked the old B5 blowing up scene from SiL rather than the whole station blowing up at once. I have to agree with liking the smoother looking Centauri ships that we saw before, but all the other ships looked much better (not that I didn't like the Centauri ships). And I loved the Starfuries!
Overall, I was surpised with how good it was. I have to admit that I was afraid that it might not be all that good before I watched it.

[David of Mac]

I know what you mean about the Sharlin scale thing, but it *is* that big. 1600 metres long makes it extremely tall. The Primus is a tad shorter lengthwise, but a lot of that is tail and it's a very flat ship. Seen in 3D next to each other, that's what they look like, I tested it.

Now it may not fit people's perceptions, but can you remember seeing a Primus and a Sharlin next to each other in the series, ever?

True enough. It still seems odd to me that that difference is quite so striking. It looks almost like the Primus is just half as long as the Sharlin, even if it's just a trick of camera angle and positioning.

I still prefer the dynamics of the station destruction from "Sleeping in Light", but the version Zoic Vancouver did looks pretty nice.

Yeah, the original was more choreographed and dynamic, with different parts breaking apart differently. The new one looked a bit like lego pieces breaking apart in the back, especially when the solar panels just fall apart for no reason. The flames and the close-up debris looked great, though.

[riku]

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SPOILER ALERT
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I'll probably the only negative one arouund here :)
IMO both parts looked very low-budjet(probably because they are). Most of the scenes were either in a dark room or in front of a blue screen with static 3d enviorment around.
The acting was, well.. pretty terrible :)
and the whole thing of "god" and the "devil"... a serious question.. "why?". I didn't like it at all.
I liked the refferation to Biggs(as Dr.Franklin) that went "beyond the rim". and the 3d graphics, good to see a high quality renders of babylon5 for a change. :)

[Chaosed]

spoiler I see a lot of room for the demon boy to just be a shadow ally. Too many things he did was in response to what the caption and the priest were talking about.

[Falcon1]

I too think there may be a Shadow link here. Remember when Morden first turned up, he would not name his "associates", kinda similar the way the possessed Simon would not reveal his name, preferring to remain unknown, mysterious. If they are indeed Shadow allies they may have been trapped there after the 1st great war. But who knows eh?

Back on topic, to me the new Valen looks like it takes inspiration from the old Tinashi frigates.

[Falcon1]

Btw Alec I have a few questions on the images on your site.

1. The first 2 images of the station one can see a ship patroling, is it a new Brakiri ship? looks like a smaller Avioki class cruiser. Its in a couple of the other station shots as well.

2. In the EA/Centauri battle dream sequence, where the Warlock is getting pounded, just to the right edge of the image is the wing of a Centauri vessel... I recognise it but think its probably one that showed up in those table top war game releases. Any ideas which one it is?

Think thats it for the moment ;)

Thanks a bunch for putting these images up, they are very very cool and luckily for me just the right size for my screen resolution, how thoughtful of you :D

[David of Mac]

1. The first 2 images of the station one can see a ship patroling, is it a new Brakiri ship? looks like a smaller Avioki class cruiser. Its in a couple of the other station shots as well.

2. In the EA/Centauri battle dream sequence, where the Warlock is getting pounded, just to the right edge of the image is the wing of a Centauri vessel... I recognise it but think its probably one that showed up in those table top war game releases. Any ideas which one it is?

I can answer that. Those were commissioned by Agents of Gaming for Fabio Passaro to model. Since they were, in fact, his models, and they were in a roundabout way official Babylon 5 (I don't perfectly understand the exact legalities), they could get slipped into the movie as background ships. You can download them for yourself, in fact, from Fabio's site. (http://meshweaver.com/frames/3d_files.htm)


As for the other thing in the first portion of the movie, Babylon 5 made many references to the power of names. Lorien didn't want to tell Sheridan his name, Ulkesh outright lied about his name, the shadows' name is ten thousand letters long, and, in a more prosaic example, the Drakh absolutely flipped out when they learned Delenn's name, even though you'd expect them to recognize her on sight, since there aren't any other Minbari with hair wandering around.

Back during the series, they made it clear there was more going on with death than meets the eye, and I'm glad to see them continuing in the vein. I think it's a lot more interesting than "The Vorlons did it." That seems lazy to me.

[Alec M]

Those are some models Fabio made for the AOG game. I really needed a bit of variety in terms of the background ships, plus, he was able to get those models to me well before I eventually got a hold of the original B5 library.

You should be able to find a Centauri "Balvarin" fighter carrier as well as a "Kutai" gunship, both in the battle scene. The Brakiri ship around B5 is a "Tashkat" cruiser.

It would have been nice to have a bit more, but each model required a certainl amount of setup time and at the end of the day background ships aren't of huge importance.

I know Fabio has some images of the models on his website: http://www.meshweaver.com. I think they're in the "3D Files" section.

[Falcon1]

Thanks guys, that explains them alright, I remember the names now.

Well the Vorlons did a lot of stuff so its hard to not point the finger at them and say "they did it!!" :D

[DarthCaligula]

My take on the "fallen angels" is this: Either they are some sort of demonic force or they could be some sort of non-corporeal being, similar to Vorlons. Some race banished them to Earth and probably some other planets at some point, and usually they just sort of float around with no consciousness unless they possess someone. They don't really even know what they are any more, so instead as they possessed people, they learned of Christianity (which would suggest they originally were only in Western countries like somewhere in Europe) and identified themselves with the fallen angels, and so since they believe that they are, that's why exorcism can work on them, just because they believe it should.

[HuntSmacker]

When the camera pans to the second Warlock, in the top right of the screen theres a stationary object in the background. What is that? It reminded me of the jumpgates from EVE online.. :P

[Mundane]

While watching part 1, I was actually thinking alot about the book trilogy from Peter Hamilton, "Nights Dawn", where dead souls are posessing living humans.

[ShadowDancer]

Heh, that occurred to me too Mundane :) Has to be my favourite series of books.

[Sanfam]

Or, DarthCaligula, they could actually be fallen angels, the last remnants from the days of creation. I'm normally not one to cite God as the cause for things, but B5 has always had some ties with theology. Seems like they could just as well be the Demons we once knew so well, trapped in purgatory for all eternity. chocking it up to an Alien influence starts to chip away the mystery of it and make it seem more complicated than it truly is.

[DarthCaligula]

Yeah, but it just seems strange that JMS would put that in the show since he's an Athiest and has never had B5 be a Christian show before. I'm not saying that they aren't some sort of demonic being, just that it would be strange if JMS suddenly threw that into B5.

[Freejack]

He's never had B5 be a specificly "Christian" show, but has has allowed the show to take a religous slant on numerous occasions, some positive (the death of Ivanava's father), some negative (the overzelousness of G'Kars followers).

While he may be atheist, his is definitely not afraid to tackle religous questions.

Jake

[croxis]

He was in a cult (lived in their compound too) for a few years when he was a youth.

[Chaosed]

The only real religious revelation was that the Vorlons weren't from any god.

[ShadowDancer]

Croxis: did he? I didnt know that

[DarthCaligula]

I'm not saying anything about how B5 handled religion, which I thought was very well actually, I'm saying that it's weird that these would be fallen angels from Christianity and Judaism, that's what I'm saying is so strange.

[marco@cavet.de]

H Alec, since the relase date here in germany is still some days ahead I can not tell you very much, but what I've seen in trailers and preview images so far looks pretty good. You and the rest of the VFX Crew seem to be done an incredible job under the thight deadline. :vorlon:

[Wesp5]

First two comments to the story elements of Lost Tales:

1) I agree with all the people who found the first episode to be out of place in B5. This could have been "Twilight Zone" all the same and I think some B5 alternatives like Telepathy or First Ones should have been discussed at least.

2) I agree with all the people who think the Quantumspace felt wrong. As was already mentioned here, it isn't consistent with the rest of the show and it seemed to me that it was only used to initiate the following very cheap joke.

Now to the SFX. The CGI quality was great and the new Minbari and Centauri ships fit B5 style much better compared to those of Crusade or Legend. I disliked the new jumphole graphics though, because as with Legend the original ones would have been fine for me. Now for two other SFX details:

1) I didn't like the Warlock firing yellow as in the original series there was an almost perfect connection between races and their powerbeam colors. EA should either still fire red or blue like the modified Shadow cruisers, not yellow like Centauri should do. This is especially critical...

2) ... as yellow beams appear in the earlier big CGI sequence. For that scene mass drivers would have been much better but I suspect this would have killed the budget big time. After all with those beams we don't actually see any destruction which we certainly would do otherwise.

[Biggles]

The beam weapons used in B5 are particle weapons, which essentially makes them mass drivers, just with lots of really small bits of mass instead of one big one. If you want to obliterate a surface, either one will do the job just fine. The colour emitted while firing would be a function of the particles that constitute the beam, so different beam technology could lead to different beam colour and it's not unlikely that the EA acquired new beam technology for the Warlock somehow.

[DarthCaligula]

Wesp5- Did you know that JMS has actually written for the Twilight Zone? I also think that it's strange that they didn't ever mention telepathy, but I actually liked that episode.
And good point about the mass drivers, that would have been really cool.

[Wesp5]

Yes, I knew JMS wrote for "Twilight Zone", that's why I got that impression. The same happened to me in the "Deconstruction" episode with the monks. That didn't fit into B5 either but would have been great in "Twilight Zone". It seems as if JMS is using this chance to bring alive any of his ideas, not only B5 ones, but I'd rather like to see the loose ends of Crusade tied up in the Lost Tales episodes.

Regarding the beam or particle weapons, I only partly agree with Biggles. Firing through an atmosphere would erode or slow down small particles much faster that large particles so the Centauri used the mass drivers on Narn on purpose. Also while I agree that the colour is connected to the technical level I would assume that the EA wouldn't get much higher in that timespan than with the stolen shadow tech. Yellow just adds to the confusion especially as it is the dominate Centauri colour and people not recognizing the new ships could get confused who is who in that battle. In case that matters to them anyway ;).

[WORF]

Vintari probably didn't want to use Mass Drivers as he knew it would echo what the Centauri did to the Narn Homeworld and how unpopular a move that was. So he would want to do something different to make himself look better.

Worf

[David of Mac]

It also depends on his aims and goals. If he just wanted to take Earth down a peg so they won't interfere in a newly expansionist Centauri Republic, then he might've just done some relatively minor strikes on civilian targets (probably after some kind of false attack on his own people to justify it). Not enough to convince the rest of the Interstellar Alliance to jump in to defend Earth, but enough to keep Earth too busy licking their own wounds to worry about what the Centauri were doing to the others.

[Wesp5]

Vintari probably didn't want to use Mass Drivers as he knew it would echo what the Centauri did to the Narn Homeworld and how unpopular a move that was. So he would want to do something different to make himself look better.

In that case one small asteroid would have been enough and I still suspect this was a CGI issue. Maybe Alec can shed some light on it and the EA particle beam colors?

[ShadowDancer]

David: I have to disagree with your assessment there. I think having New York levelled wouldn't keep the EA licking its wounds for long, and then they would be out for blood. We also dont know if it was just New York that was hit, it could well have been a planet wide bombardment of which just New York was the start. Coupled with the attacks on the military I think it would have had to have been a major assault. If it wasn't then they had to realise that Earth wouldn't just sit back and take it, that would be against everything we've seen Earth to stand for.

[Chaosed]

Wesp5,

It is considered illegal when Londo watched his government do it. I would think it would be illegal in the time when Ventari did it.

[Wesp5]

Wesp5,

It is considered illegal when Londo watched his government do it. I would think it would be illegal in the time when Ventari did it.
It didn't stop the Centauri back then and I don't think it would stop the Centauri when they dare to attack a world of the ISA.

[Messiah]

Considering the story, I too find the first episode odd. I qould have liked for the "demon" to have been exposed as left over shadow tech at the end of the episode, possibly out to frighten earth back into the middle ages, but alas no..

Considering the VFX, I can just say: Great job. Pat yourselves on the back, I especially enjoyed the closeups of the starfury exhausts, and the heat shimmers behind Galen and Sheridan when they talk out in the docking room.
Great attention to detail.

Also, I really liked that you used several AOG ships in the ep., giving them a nod. You took some of the best looking ones too, the Balvarin Carrier especially. :)

[shadow boxer]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1276/1224194200_5d5f8a53cb_o.jpg *

that, is so cool...

and its got the crucial little change someone suggested, the toes hanging down to strengthen the impression that he's hanging from that rocket pack

I sure hope that other similar ones get used...

*COUGH*

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26077195@N00/sets/72157600216464565/

Those are all my work and I'd have absolutely no problem with them being used, gratis, nor I think would the intended recipients would mind either. Also, I'd do more on spec, for nuthin' if they we're needed...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


*If WB wants to sue my ass for doing a screen cap, so be it. This is all my own doing. Send the goonz to my door. I just gotta share. :)

[Messiah]

I would love to see Argones being used.

[shadow boxer]

I wouldn't want Argone's to be used... in fact I'd expressly forbid anyone from using it and indeed the 'Marauder' one. There's a large story as to why. I was banned for a week for trying to share it with you guys. PM me if you want details and I'll e-mail you the post that was deleted from these boards discussing this matter. It seems the mods are more than a little hyper-concerned with privacy.

[ShadowDancer]

How much do you charge for your wingart SB?

I caught a bit of that thread in question, but as I wasnt around back then I dont think its right of me to enquire further.

[shadow boxer]

well I used to do it for free when I had time on my hands, now I'm a good deal busier on stuff which pays the bills, so I don't do it much at all of late. That said, if you have paypal, email me @ saeble at gmail dot com and we can have a chat ;)

[Chaosed]

I was thinking of spacecraft and what color they are when I recalled they are wight. I went and checked out Wikipedia. The Enterprise from the same named show was gray, the rest were wight. Soyuz is black, gray, wight, red with gold soler panels. The Hubble looks gold silver-gray and black. Don't let the silver-gray monster eat your brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_ships

[Capt.Montoya]

I finally got to visit the USA border and bought a copy. Enjoyable couple of stories.

I liked the new computer graphics. Really nice job.

I have the impression that there is something wrong: diffuse shadows over B5. It's space, no one can hear you scream and for the same reason (no air) a beam of light does not diffract. There should leave sharp boundaries between lighted and non-lighted parts.

I may need to pay more attention but it seems that there are some soft shadows in space...

And we know that the Shadows are not soft!

[Alec M]

Actually, light still bounces around in space, off one surface and onto others. Plus, B5 has a decent amount of lights around the structure. Also remember that it is near a planet, a huge and relatively diffuse (for space) light source. Take a look at some orbital photography of the space station or Shuttle as examples.

That being said, yes, it's not totally realistic. 100% realistic, "deep space" lighting in the pure sense looks really cartoony, graphic and fake on screen. It might be correct, but to the vast majority of audiences, it won't look correct. It's a dramatic sci-fi story after all, not a JPL/NASA mission animation.

Glad you enjoyed it none the less.

[David of Mac]

Plus, the local star will be large enough in the sky for shadows to diffuse at some distance, just like how the shadow of your finger will blur once it's more than a few feet away from whatever the shadow is being cast upon on a sunny day.

[Chaosed]

Hay Alec M have you gotten in touch with the B5 Podcast? I expect they would be quit happy to interview you.

[Alec M]

No, I haven't. I cherish my position behind the cameras, or microphones....way behind.

[Chaosed]

Come on! The CGI people for the tv show did. Netter even was on the show! Ummm it will get your name out. Ya that. So do it. You can call me a jerk and get back at me on the air. Or not.

There number is 206-338-2259. Just call. They sed good things about your work.

[Sanfam]

Eh, I'd probably end up doing the same as Alec if I were in his position. Living behind the scenes and staying there can be so much more satisfying. You get to spend more time fiddling and less time talking. :p Though the though of telling off a forum member on a highly trafficked podcast would be appealing...

[Chaosed]

You get to talk about Alliance member ships and how all the best metals are gray. No matter what they are, they are gray. Even copper.

How the ship engines got smaller.

How I realy messed up on my viewing of the B5 station. You will get to call me an ass.

Summer sounds cute if that helps. Or Yarsto if it doesn't.

Just explaining your vision of the progress the Alliance would be good.

[Chaosed]

This show is about an hour long so just skip past the non 'over there' part if that is whats wanted. Theres some discussion on Alec M's work witch is why I posted this. :P
There love of this DVD is infectious. ( Note: This is the 2ed part of there TLT critic. )

http://www.babylonpodcast.com/2007/10/03/babylon-podcast-show-84/